Curse

Neo-LD · Aug 23, 2006, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Although I do not think that the OP explained himself very well, he is indeed absolutely 100% correct. I will do my best to explain what I think is the reasons for the evolution of the 'kill the monk' strategy and the reasons why that strategy is now obsolete.

I dont think that the kill the monk strategy evolved form specific monk builds. Before the popularization of Boon-Prots, monks were so flimsy you could execute almost any offensive strategy you wanted and easily break them. The kill the monk strategy evolved from a common and logical observation: if the monk is dead, he cant heal, and therefore the rest of the enemy team will be easy to kill given enough time. Killing non-monks was great, but the healer would still be around to oppose you when you moved on to the next target... if only the monk were dead, killing would be so much easier! The logic of "kill monk = no more heals for them = kills for us = win" was powerful enough that most GW players played gunning for the monks.

Therefore, PvP saw the evolution of what I refer(ed) to as 'monk obliteration' strategies. For example, people would go into TA with a war, interupt ranger, and ED mes, and chuckle at how every monk they faced would be royally screwed by the combined firepower of all 3 characters.

Nowadays, however, the theory has changed to the polar opposite. This is fundamentally because of a huge increase in the PvP skill level across nearly all serious players for all classes. Good teams now recognize that defense is not just the monk's job; team defense is key. People kite, disrupt, and mitigate much, much, much more than they used to, so that focusing your combined firepower on monk(s) is usually an exercise in futility - also, monk obliteration leaves the entire enemy offense unmitigated: suicidal in todays metagame.

Once it became difficult to get kills on monks, the theory changed. Sure, you would like to get a kill on a monk - they are some of the highest value targets on the field. But consistently killing monks from good teams is usually impractical. Hitting a monk will make him kite. As has been said earlier, a monk that is kiting is doing his job - defense. Likewise, attacking a mesmer will make him kite. However, a mesmer who is kiting is unable to do his job - offense.

As a consequence of the above dynamics, monks are the absolute worst enemies to target unless you can guarentee a kill. The reason for this is that hitting midline softies will deal just as much damage or more than hitting monks, therefore forcing them to spend just as much or more energy and applying just as much or more pressure - but it will also mitigate their damage. Conversely, monks are the absolute best targets to hit if you can guarentee a kill. This is why monks make such great spike targets - assuming you can reach them. The reason for that goes back to the original kill the monks theory. A monk thats dead cant heal, and consequently you can easily round up the rest of the enemy team. Killing a monk gives you a chance to chain the second, possibly causing a wipe. DP on a monkgives you an advantage, making him easier to spike in the future, therefore giving you more and more opportunities to wipe the enemy team.

Farin · Aug 23, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Just to clarify monks are being refered as those that actually heal and not smite monks. Targeting smiters is as good as tartgeting any other softie. They're still monks but in this case the job you want them to do is offense, so by making them kite or smite to heal you're doing your job right.

A little off topic but there are times where I knock lock a monk for 6 seconds and get a kill on him instead of just trying to spike something else. Feels great to interrupt that reversal.

Symbol · Aug 23, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

I can't really see a scenario where your melee should be pressuring the opposing monk first (usually a boon prot).

1) A boon prot is quite possibly the most efficient class while kiting. A .25 sec reversal means that they don't have to stop for long to cast, and their efficiency is almost unhindered by having to kite.

2) Energy wise it doesn't matter whether the monk is healing himself, or a teammate. They still have to spend energy to do it.

3) If you're chasing an offensive caster, you're removing a player from their offense. If you're chasing a monk, you're forcing him to do something he would do anyway (heal).

Byron · Aug 23, 2006, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

monk obliteration leaves the entire enemy offense unmitigated: suicidal in todays metagame.

Certainly true: most, if not all, top-tier guilds play very defensively. For good reason - overextension and overagression is usually fatal in high-end play.

A tad off topic: I love the way iB monks (the first I saw) will kite completely backwards, away from the battefield, when under attack; they will do this as long as necessary. Very few attackers will chase a monk past the backline, and doing that removes at least one attacker for a time.

Quote:

As a consequence of the above dynamics, monks are the absolute worst enemies to target unless you can guarentee a kill.

Well, sometimes hitting a monk hard will cause a mild panic, and result in the enemy team being pushed back, or the monks expelling energy needlessly. Of course, that strategy likely won't work against highly experienced enemy teams.

Quote:

Conversely, monks are the absolute best targets to hit if you can guarentee a kill.

No doubt, the best targets to inflict DP on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

If you're chasing an offensive caster, you're removing a player from their offense. If you're chasing a monk, you're forcing him to do something he would do anyway (heal).

QFT. Counter-attacks are where it's at.

moriz · Aug 23, 2006, 09:50 PM // 21:50

it really depends on the monk though. boon prots are equally effective healing themselves or teammates, while B-Light monks are noticeably weaker with self-heals. relying on an un-booned RoF and a 10 energy, 150hp (with divine favor) heal to self-heal can be very inefficient.

whatever floats your boat, i guess. i believe the best strategy is to park a shock warrior on the monk while concentrating pressure on other targets. that will force the monk to do self-heal, kite, and heal teammates, which tend to zap their energy faster than most e-denial.

Schorny · Aug 24, 2006, 01:21 AM // 01:21

rule of thumb:

only target a monk if you expect to kill someone while doing so.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 24, 2006, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Conversely, monks are the absolute best targets to hit if you can guarentee a kill.

Sometimes, but not always. It really depends on your team's strategy. I would say that warriors are the targets least able to function with DP - putting even 15 or 30% DP on a warrior makes him much more of a death risk when he extends out of monk range, so he's not able to play agressively or spike with Frenzy. I've seen matches turn around from a big advantage because one team wasn't able to spike effectively with DP on their warriors.

I would say that warriors are the most effective targets to DP, while monks are the most effective targets to DP out. If a team is already reeling hitting a monk can give you multiple kills, but if you're getting the first or second kill through a spike it can be much better to hit a warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Certainly true: most, if not all, top-tier guilds play very defensively. For good reason - overextension and overagression is usually fatal in high-end play.

Strongly disagreed. The top-tier teams I've played against have all played extremely agressively and put pressure on our team from multiple fronts. The best defense is a good offense, and if the other team is reeling trying to counter all your plays they can't make as many of their own. Good teams use their offense to cripple their opponent's best plays, rather than trying to shore up their own defense.

Kwisatz_Haderach · Aug 24, 2006, 01:33 AM // 01:33

alright thank you for these last few posts

A few thinks i would like to address:

First about the Heal Party spam, yes that does definatly migitate the damage my multiple target strategy In the current meta game the hp spammer is an ele, an ele, not a monk and that just further reinforces my point that while monk is a high priority target there are other targets that can do more harm than a monk can.

Also i saw someone ask where i got that build from and as stated it came from guildwiki.

Finally thanks for making this a intelligent discussion and not deteriorating into a brag campaign about how "i let others go for the monk and i hit the mes."

Byron · Aug 24, 2006, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Strongly disagreed. The top-tier teams I've played against have all played extremely agressively and put pressure on our team from multiple fronts. The best defense is a good offense, and if the other team is reeling trying to counter all your plays they can't make as many of their own.

I'm sure our disagreement is a misunderstanding, because I know we agree (ha). When I said defensively, I perhaps should have said smartly conservative. The best teams will have a very efficient offense (and I've had the privilege of facing some very persistent top guilds), but won't fall into a scheme of overextension and tactical bloodlust. Meh - maybe I overstepped my bounds in generalizing, though, and maybe I'm spending too much time in observer mode.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 24, 2006, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I'm sure our disagreement is a misunderstanding, because I know we agree (ha). When I said defensively, I perhaps should have said smartly conservative. The best teams will have a very efficient offense (and I've had the privilege of facing some very persistent top guilds), but won't fall into a scheme of overextension and tactical bloodlust. Meh - maybe I overstepped my bounds in generalizing, though, and maybe I'm spending too much time in observer mode.

It's the difference between a reckless offense and a coordinated one, basically. A good team will have a merciless offense that constantly throttles the enemy, but their offensive characters won't get tunnel vision and play in a way that makes them pointless death risks.

Thom Bangalter · Aug 24, 2006, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I'm sure our disagreement is a misunderstanding, because I know we agree (ha). When I said defensively, I perhaps should have said smartly conservative. The best teams will have a very efficient offense (and I've had the privilege of facing some very persistent top guilds), but won't fall into a scheme of overextension and tactical bloodlust. Meh - maybe I overstepped my bounds in generalizing, though, and maybe I'm spending too much time in observer mode.

holy crap. byron is alive.

and is there such a thing as too much time in observer mode?

and yeah, zerg rushing the monk is never good form, unless the team has no concept of positioning, and is doing the same thing only ineffectively, but then that's generally an unranked guild, isn't it?

Mrscoombes · Aug 25, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Meh, if the monk is dead then it cant heal the rest of it's team. That basically worked for me most of the time.

JR · Aug 25, 2006, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrscoombes

Meh, if the monk is dead then it cant heal the rest of it's team. That basically worked for me most of the time.

#

Have you actually read all of this thread?

TeeGee · Aug 25, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Well - boonprot is hard to kill but relatively easy to shutdown by mesmer.

Conclusion is simple - mesmers shutdowns monks (dy diverting, shaming or e-denying) and rest of team does some killing on offensive casters while monk has it own problems and is unable to heal (mesmers usually, but ofcourse it depends on build). This is the way it's played for most balanced teams out there and for reason.

Right now the only teams that use "KILL TEH M0NK F1RST!!1" strategy, are the bad ones. Even in TA.

Symbol · Aug 26, 2006, 06:29 AM // 06:29

I don't think it's fair to say that boon prots are "easy" to shutdown. They are quite resistent to edenial (super efficient spells, elite energy management) and diversion is a counter for any build, not just boon prots.

kvndoom · Aug 26, 2006, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Heh, "chase the monk" is the written-in-stone RA metagame. I absolutely SUCK at monk, and yet I can go into RA as a monk and string off wins by doing the following:

1) hold down the UpArrow and RightArrow keys simultaneously
2) Activating Distortion whenever someone gets close

Yes, I will run in a complete circle for 2 minutes with 2 or 3 of the opposing team chasing me, while the rest of my team kills them off systematically. It shames me that these are real people I'm playing against. When I used to PVE the game AI was more challenging than this.

But moving on to real combat (TA and upwards), it's good to pressure the monk so he can't just sit back and heal at will, but killing him first is not necessary. As was already said, you prioritize whomever is doing you the most damage. Could be an interrupt ranger, a mesmer, a blindbot, a spirit spammer, whatever. But you have to assess and prioritize.

just rude · Aug 26, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Woo Hoo,

it sounds like we are all in agreement, whatever that is.

The entire team does not need to hump the monk, but someone needs to screw his leg in order to kill stuff.

I still disagree that a monk on the run is doing his job to the fullest, but absolutely he can stop and pop stuff onto teammates.

Any questions about how important a target the monk is were answered by evil, eventhough they lost, they had 1 of IQ monks to 30 by the time VoD came around. I took a shower from 24-35 so I may have missed a kill or 2.

Yes, IQ was attacking the flagrunner and the mes's in the first match but they had a spike.

And the OP was talking about melee dmg not mes's and stuff.

"It's the difference between a reckless offense and a coordinated one, basically. A good team will have a merciless offense that constantly throttles the enemy, but their offensive characters won't get tunnel vision and play in a way that makes them pointless death risks."

this should be stickied or something

Engel the Fallen · Aug 26, 2006, 07:58 AM // 07:58

The single most brutal beating I took in a GvG game, was when the other team decided to DP the warriors hardcore. The second we moved up at all, they would do a three man spike on us. And forget frenzy or healing sig as they pressured the warriors. After a few deaths, it was gg for us, as they destroyed most of our offense.

TeeGee · Aug 27, 2006, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

I don't think it's fair to say that boon prots are "easy" to shutdown. They are quite resistent to edenial (super efficient spells, elite energy management) and diversion is a counter for any build, not just boon prots.

I didn't mean e-denial as it's fairly innefective against boonprots. And diversion is better for countering boonies than other builds as they spam spells. Besides if you manage to divert boon or rof they are pretty much dead.

To clear my point - it's easier for mesmer to shut boonprot than for warrior to kill him. Also it's easier for warrior to kill everybody else, than for mesmer to shut them down. Conclusion - mesmers on monks while rest of team kills enemy offence.

Still as all seem to agree here, there is no further point for this discussion I guess.

Loch · Aug 27, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

I still disagree that a monk on the run is doing his job to the fullest, but absolutely he can stop and pop stuff onto teammates.

1.) A monk's job is to heal or mitigate damage
2.) Kiting is free damage mitigation

You draw the conclusion.